Curse

The Fox · Mar 02, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Why make new professions when you can expand on older ones? & How to remove the nerf bat from A-Net!

The Current System
First you pick your profession and then as you gain levels you aquire attribute points that are mixed in with the current attributes, which have been around forever.

The Better Solution
What if your 100 or 1,000+ hour character received new skills through the introduction of new attribute lines during future expansions/chapters, but could not mix these new lines with attribute lines from old chapters/expasions?

Now your probably asking, "Why does this dummy want to limit my skill choices by creating new attribute lines. I've only got so may points to distribute!" Simple answer really, to make things easy on developers trying to balance while also creating more positives for us the players.

Positives

+ Only making new attribute lines results in no balance change to past attribute lines, which then eliminates the need to nerf old skills & builds.

+ It's better to expand on an old character than have to start new professions at level one and then need to replay all of the same old quests.

+ More attribute lines will result in more potential diversity within a profession, which will then result in more "shelf life" for your character and less stereotyping.

+ No new professions would mean expansions could be fully designed for a max level character (with no newbie starter island)!

+ If you like going after fame or titles you'll have more ways to play that one super star your using and will reduce the need to title grind the same thing again on a new toon.

+ Would you rather buy armor/weapons/everything for a several professions or for just a few?

Negatives

- Less diversity of appearances, since there would be less professions.

Solution: Assign Names to differt subclasses of attribute lines, which then qualifies that player to equip certain armor types or styles.

- Role Playing purposes give multipule professions an edge since you have a better chance of meeting all player desires for classes.

Solution : Do a good job in emphasizing the uniqueness of each sub-class.

- You may get sick of looking at the same character.

Solution : Make a new one of a different race...

For example, say you had a profession called BRAWLER, that would by default be subclassed as a "Warrior" and have access to the attribute lines Strength, Swordsmanship, Hammer Mastery, and Tactics.

During an expansion, a subclass for all brawlers called, "Dervish" could be introduced which would open up access to the attributes, "Mysticism, Scythe Master, Wind Prayers, Earth Prayers.

During yet another expansion, a subclass for all brawlers called "Assassin" could be introduced, which would open up access to the attributes, "Critical Strike, Dagger Mastery, Shadow Arts, and Deadly Arts.

*Note - picking a subclass would temporarily prevent you from using any skills from another subclass.

Anyways, please expanding on my list of positives and negatives. After having wrote this, I'd probably be in favor of a system that allow a character to switch between PROFESSIONS at will from an outpost after meeting certain requirements.

Is there really any reason to force people to make their INSERT YOUR FAVORITE CHARACTERS NAME HERE, always play the same style. Why would you want the negatives mentioned above when making a new character? Why would you want to give up all the stuff you've unlocked and purchased for your favorite character just to experience a new playing style?

D E C E P T I V E · Mar 02, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Lets face it, there is alot that is is good about Guild Wars. Games dont get to be as popular as Guild Wars unless there is ALOT of things that are really good about them. Im not saying that GW doesnt lack in some aspects, just saying that most of what is in the current GW is pretty good. Lots of games mentioned in this thread comparing those class systems to GW arent even in the same ballpark with GW.

I like the current class system for the most part. I really like the fact that you can respec and rebuild your character as often as you like so you never have to make a new character of the same class to do something like use an a hammer instead of a sword because you permanenently assign attribute points as you develop your character and would hate to see anything like that.

You cannot eliminate class and just allow free reign for people to just choose whatever attribute they want and put it into their character. It would be a balancing nightmare. Imagine an ele character with fast casting, expertise, fire magic, air magic and all of the havoc a character like that could create in regards to balance with a bar full of what would normally high powered AOE dmg, high energy cost, slow casting spells that wouldnt cost him alot of energy because of expertise and wouldnt cast slow because of fast casting.

For all of the people suggesting that GW2 have these radical concepts related to eliminating all the original professions altogether, I think that is just crazy and I dont really expect to see that. It is after all Guild Wars 2, which should have a pretty strong foundation within and be built upon GW1. If they were going to do something so radical like that I would expect an entirely different name to an entirely different game.

What I would like to see is

A class system similiar to GW current system as far as primary and secondary go, but where race adds an additional factor that effects skills similar to the way your primary attribute affects your characters skills now.

I would also like to be able to change primary as well secondary professions but be confined to race. This would create so much freedom and replayablility factor within the game. No one really likes leveling up and creating new characters, they do so because they are bored with playing in the same kind of role, and building a new char becomes just a grind to get the skills and experience they need to play that character in high end fun parts of the game. If you could change your primary profession you could pretty much play anywhere in any part of the game, you would repeat parts of the game in order to obtain and cap skills for whatever your new chosen profession is. It would just eliminate all the grind of having to start out on some noob island and doing a bunch of crap that you really dont want to do, but have to in order to do what you want, which isnt so bad for your first 2 or 3 chars but as i learned in GW1, when you get to the point of having 4 or more gets really old and boring really fast. ....Anyway, thats what I would suggest.

The Fox · Mar 02, 2008, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

You cannot eliminate class and just allow free reign for people to just choose whatever attribute they want and put it into their character. It would be a balancing nightmare.

Did you read my thread or just skim?

The whole idea was to still limit which attribute lines were usable together by using "subclasses." Basically, a "sub-class" is the SAME thing as a new profession BUT it would allow NEW SKILLS for a profession WITHOUT bluffing current attribute lines of skills. Whenever they make new skills for a current attribute that attribute has more combinations availiable which then causes that whole attribute to need re-worked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

What I would like to see is
A class system similiar to GW current system as far as primary and secondary go, but where race adds an additional factor that effects skills similar to the way your primary attribute affects your characters skills now.
I would also like to be able to change primary as well secondary professions but be confined to race. This would create so much freedom and replayablility factor within the game. No one really likes leveling up and creating new characters, they do so because they are bored with playing in the same kind of role, and building a new char becomes just a grind to get the skills and experience they need to play that character in high end fun parts of the game. If you could change your primary profession you could pretty much play anywhere in any part of the game, you would repeat parts of the game in order to obtain and cap skills for whatever your new chosen profession is. It would just eliminate all the grind of having to start out on some noob island and doing a bunch of crap that you really dont want to do, but have to in order to do what you want, which isnt so bad for your first 2 or 3 chars but as i learned in GW1, when you get to the point of having 4 or more gets really old and boring really fast. ....Anyway, thats what I would suggest.

I don't see what the difference is between our suggestions...??? I was assuming their would still be a secondary class that was selectable. I guess I've played GW so much that I considered that a given.

Biostem · Mar 02, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

I am a big advocate of KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. (I'm not saying you or your idea is stupid, that's just the saying)

Anyway, I would prefer to see individual attributes kept to a minimum, and instead focus on how different things can work together - perhaps in new or interesting ways. Think of it sort of like how in FF7 you could take a lightning spell and combine it w/ an "all" modifier to turn it into an AoE. Basically, what if you could take a weapon skill, mix it w/ an elemental attribute line, and come out w/ a sort of "new melee class" that can do new things. Maybe sword + air magic = lightning attacks that also cause weakness, or somesuch. Basically, keep the mechanics simple and the attributes limited, but allow for many unique combinations and applications. I mean, just taking the same example of air magic and a weapon, what if a hammer + air magic could result in a weapon that causes thunderclaps w/ its attacks, thus knocking down enemies more effectively and/or stunning them. It's the same basic ingredients but "cooked" in a different way...

U Wanna Die · Mar 02, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

but why change a system that already works?

/notsigned
because no need to fix what already is fine

The Fox · Mar 02, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I must have not been clear with my origional post. I don't want to change the current system! I'd like to use the same characters in every expansion and I'd like to reduce the introduction of new skills to old attribute lines.

Think about why you have multipule characters and then tell me why it's funner to have several than just one or a few. Basically you have to do everything twice if you make another profession.

Let me try to give a visual

Profession >>> Subclass >>> Attributes

MAGE >>> (ele, rit, mes, nec...ect)

Character >>> FIGHTER >>> (wa, ra, sin, der, par... ect)

HEALER >>> (mo, ... ect)

No here's an example of a character.

Kaijun Don - Profession Mage/Healer Sub-Class Rit/Mo

Attributes to choose from would be the same as a standard Rit/Mo; however, expansions would intro new skills though "subclasses" for existing characters, rather than though new professions. This would eliminate the need to create a new character, start at level one, have a newb island, buy armor/weapons twice, unlock everything twice, do quests twice... ect.

Now think about this. If you add all new skills though expansions as new attribute lines, you've basically segmented, which ones can be used together or else people will spread their attribute points to thin.

If all warriors had access to "core" skills but then was introduced with NEW attribute lines with each expansion, then yes you'd have a LOT of attribute lines, BUT new skills would not have as much interaction with old ones, which would result in less game balancing.

Summary

1.) Give all characters the ability to switch professions.
2.) Don't mix future skills with existing attribute lines. Instead make new attributes and balance them against the old attribute lines.
3.) Still need to create uniqueness of characters by giving access to armor art based on sub-classes.

Kanyatta · Mar 02, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

It would make PvP a horrible IMBA fest.

The Fox · Mar 02, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

AS STATED ABOVE -_-

I'm not wanting to give every character access to all attributes. Infact, the current system would remain untouched. You'd still have the same limitations for mixing a primary and secondary.

1.) I want the game developers to RESTRICT choices of skill combinations by only having new skills introduced though new attribute lines.

2.) I want a character to be able to change professions. Why do everything twice.

*Note - If it helps to understand my propositions, think of your character being able to change it's primary professions just like we now can change our secondary. Then when you buy a new chapter or expansion think of all skills being usable ONLY with completely new attributes that are introduced with that particular game. This means developers wouldn't have to re-balance every time they add content, and could focus on make these newly introduced attribute lines equal in power to the old ones. Possible build combinations would be greatly reduced, but new skills could be more lfrequently added without worry of balance. This would result in greater profession diversity.

Kanyatta · Mar 02, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Point #1: After re-reading everything, all I see is "give all classes more attributes". I can't find an instance where you say otherwise.

Point #2: You can change professions

The Fox · Mar 02, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Exactly! Thank you for re-reading it. Sorry for being over complicated. More attributes would be the replacement of having new skills thrown in with old ones. So how do you think those changes would affect the game?

Positive or Negatively? Please list reasons for both.

MithranArkanere · Mar 02, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Nah. The best choice would make profession a choice, something you choose at the start, but you can change anytime:

- Asura: Starts as a golemancer in a golem krewe.
- Learns everything a golemancer can learn, then join a Defense krewe and can change your primary to 'Paladin' (Asuran version of Warrior). Now you can equip Paladin armor and skills, and set 'golemancer' as secondary if you want, but cannot equip golemancer armor while paladin is your primary.

That way, people could have ONE character of each ace and learn EVERYTHING. And the 'this profession cannot join' issue would completely dissapear, since you will only have to change primary equip primary armor, and done, your are of another profession.

The Fox · Mar 03, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

I'd be happy with that MithranArkanere.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 04, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

The way I look at this idea, I see this in GW2:

Race >>> Profession >>> Attributes + Equipment.

Looks pretty good to me. If I had one character from each race that could do every profession, I'd probably enjoy that enough.

/signed

Kiasyd117 · Mar 04, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Ideally that is what aNet intends when they were discussing the varied races of GW2, though it somewhat borders on other MMORPG styles of character development. I would assume that each race would have some minor special trait that when combined with the unique class attribute would lend itself to a wider variety of character creation.

I fear however that it would simply lend itself to even more player boycotting than goes on now (What, not R5+ Norn?...Go Die!) and become (What, an Assuran Ranger?...Go Die!)

But that will alway happen in some regards, it may even lend itself to ingame "race" wars, not suggesting real world bigotry, just pointing out that there are places where my Ritualist dares not to try to get a team unless it's a guild group.

newbie_of_doom · Mar 04, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Let's delete dervishes and make warriors have scyths.

Yay.